Manga and anime problem.

[Jaywolf88]

Hey so I want to have an open conversation about something I think people maybe overlook or try not to think to heavily about, which is what I did for a long time but recently I can’t anymore it’s like my mind unlocked info and now I can’t turn it off. We all know anime has a lot of fan service right? Well usually I can ignore it cause it’s usually just a high-school girl with big boobs and her panties are showing, stereotypical. I’m talking about the other issue. The sexualization of very young girls and or young looking girls. For example, I’m scrolling on a website to read a manga and I come across one with a girl in elementary school flashing her panties and I’m like what is this? I just ignore it but I do want to ask how is it so widely accepted? I know most people see it and go oh god but we also like don’t riot or try and take it down. It’s considered freedom of expression or the argument is “the author isn’t a pedo he likes anime lolis”.  It got me to thinking though when manga artists who do draw sexualized anime girls( specifically very young ones) are they using a reference in their head? Do they have a reference of a real life little girl and use her to draw, or is it more they use reference of a made up adult but just makes them smaller in their head, or do they use other loli characters as reference so on and so fourth or do they make up the anime girl completely without any reference whether real or fake. I just couldn’t get it out of my head if they’re using real children as reference to draw whether they use fotos of images in their head of real kids they’ve seen. Even big time anime’s or mangakas will draw young girls flashing their non existent cleavage or showing panties, one good example is Shirō from no game no life.  she’s literally 11 but so sexualized. It’s so prevalent in other shows and mangas and they tend to be created by men as well. I love anime and manga, I really do, but I just wanted to get opinions from other people who see this happening as well, how do you cope? Or are you also not coping well. Do you have any more knowledge and insight from artists who do draw loli characters? Are they not using real kids and reference. The problem here to is there will be artists who are creeps and do use real children, I guess I’m talking about the majority of the community that draws that kind of stuff, what do they use as reference if any. Thank you for listening to me ramble, I just feel like this is an important topic and want to talk to other people who either feel the same way I do or who have different opinions or thoughts. :)

[Myouya]

@Jaywolf88 I cannot stress enough how much I agree with this, the main argument you'll hear from people is "it's a cartoon / fiction, it's not a real person", but that really means nothing when you consider that the things we enjoy in fiction are very strongly related to the things we want in reality. For instance, very silly but accurate example, if you adore dogs IRL, it's very likely you'll naturally enjoy a work of art about dogs. The same principle applies for pretty much everything else, and the excuse that it's "an anime, it's what it does" is a deflection of the fact that these people are genuine paedophiles trying to mask what they are. Is every person who enjoys anime with some degree of fan service one of them? I want to believe not, that some are just ignorant and so desensitised to the sexualisation of minors that they just go with it. It's essential to help them grow aware of the dangerous culture they're promoting unawaringly (or aware).

I've been falling out of watching anime more and more with the years, to the point where I only watch maybe one or two things a year if a friend recommends it to me. Paradoxical considering I'm an admin in a website called Anime Forums, but I know there's a lot of value in the art of Japanese animation and I want to strive for a healthier environment that recognises it over cheap eye candy for perverts. 

[Jaywolf88]

17 hours ago, Myouya said:

@Jaywolf88 I cannot stress enough how much I agree with this, the main argument you'll hear from people is "it's a cartoon / fiction, it's not a real person", but that really means nothing when you consider that the things we enjoy in fiction are very strongly related to the things we want in reality. For instance, very silly but accurate example, if you adore dogs IRL, it's very likely you'll naturally enjoy a work of art about dogs. The same principle applies for pretty much everything else, and the excuse that it's "an anime, it's what it does" is a deflection of the fact that these people are genuine paedophiles trying to mask what they are. Is every person who enjoys anime with some degree of fan service one of them? I want to believe not, that some are just ignorant and so desensitised to the sexualisation of minors that they just go with it. It's essential to help them grow aware of the dangerous culture they're promoting unawaringly (or aware).

I've been falling out of watching anime more and more with the years, to the point where I only watch maybe one or two things a year if a friend recommends it to me. Paradoxical considering I'm an admin in a website called Anime Forums, but I know there's a lot of value in the art of Japanese animation and I want to strive for a healthier environment that recognises it over cheap eye candy for perverts. 

I’m glad I’m not the only one who is more and more disturbed by how much sexualization of young kids are in anime. I love studio ghibli because they never sexualize the children and I know Miyazaki himself is very disturbed by a lot of anime and manga. I just don’t understand it. Why is it so normalized? It makes me side eye creators who do it. I’m like are you a closet pedo? Or just a weird fictional loli lover, which is still weird. I’ve seen throughout my time on the Internet many who like loli or draw it say they only like loli anime characters and they would never actually like real children, I want to believe them but I am aware some will be lying. I sort of get it but not really.  For example, I love reading shoujo manga and I end up liking a character who is probably 16 but I would never actually like a real 16 year old that’s absolutely out of the question. I kind of equate it to that but it’s like living out a shoujo fantasy cause I was 16 and wanted to fall in love, lol. But with loli im like oh this is a character that looks 10 and is sitting on the older guys face and im like WHO IS WRITING THIS GARBAGE. Even famous mangakas will have moments in their manga, or weird angles that im like is this because it’s a dynamic shot ? Or are y’all weirdos? You won’t know. I guess what im trying to get at is. How do we enjoy media that’s steeped in such problematic behavior? Here’s the thing almost all things if you look into it long enough, especially in media you’ll find something horrible. So many musicians are pedos, actors, singers, writers, etc. It’s so difficult to enjoy things when you know it’s history. With anime and manga it’s more apparent cause it’s normalized and people just turn a blind eye, but I still think we need to talk about it more and hold people accountable like that disgusting mangaka of rurouni kenshin who was found with child porn, and said he likes elementary school girls to like young middle school. I was like how is he not in jail? He didn’t serve any jail time and his manga is still ongoing and he has a reboot of kenshin coming out. Why are they supporting this man, even other well known mangakas are supporting him, whether it be japans weird societal rules to not speak out especially cause you all work for the same manga serializing company, or they think he served his crime( he paid a penalty) and they think he’s better, or they just don’t care enough. A child in a bathtub shouldn’t be seen as creepy or sexual but when I see it in anime or manga written by a man I’m like why you put this in? Why we got to see her silhouette or outline of her butt, normally it’s like oh it’s a naked kid taking a bath, but in anime I’m like what pervert is this for??? Things that shouldn’t be sexualized are and I’m tired of it. I’m just glad I’m not alone.

[Myouya]

Yes, they're all freaks. There's little more to it unfortunately...

[KaiyaSaysHaiya]

this!! I couldn't stress it enough

It's honestly disgusting how sexualized minors are in anime and manga, and how normalised it's become too. Even things such as sailor uniforms are so fetishized and sexualised to the point it's almost considered normal. The last time I checked, they are worn by middle schoolers. Middle schoolers.

It's such a big issue, and I can see why it's one of the reasons a lot of people turn away from giving anime/manga a chance.

[Tomochan]

i dont really care about it since its not real people.

[Animedragon]

15 hours ago, Tomochan said:

i dont really care about it since its not real people.

But the drawings were made by real people who had the ideas in their heads and thought it was OK to sexualise minors and show underage girls in adult situations.

18 hours ago, KaiyaSaysHaiya said:

It's such a big issue, and I can see why it's one of the reasons a lot of people turn away from giving anime/manga a chance.

Back in the mid 1990's when I started watching anime there was a huge amount of outrage in a couple of the national newspapers here in the UK over the amount of graphic sex and violence in anime. It wasn't a good time to admit that you watched anime, and even now I've noticed the occasional raised eyebrow when I mention anime.

Sadly it has to be said that at least one distributor pretty much encouraged this attitude as a means of gaining some free publicity. On one occasion they showed an uncut version of a film at a pre-view screening  for journalists, that contained scenes that had been cut from the actual release version, the outcry and outrage made the papers next day. 

[Tomochan]

11 minutes ago, Animedragon said:

But the drawings were made by real people who had the ideas in their heads and thought it was OK to sexualise minors and show underage girls in adult situations.

you mean, fictional minors?

[KaiyaSaysHaiya]

16 hours ago, Tomochan said:

i dont really care about it since its not real people.

while it is true that the characters themselves are fictional, these are still real people depicting minors in adult ways and putting them in such situations. There are actual people creating and looking at children like this and enjoying it.

Fictional or not, a child is still a child and adults are putting them in sexual situations. It doesn't matter if the character is real or not.

[Tomochan]

it absolutely matters if the character is REAL. Are you hearing yourself? "a child is still a child", its a character not a child. Its not a real person. It has no thoughts or feelings. Thinking otherwise is chris chan level dimensional merge thinking

and yes, in order to make art, you must be a "real" person. Why does that even matter? Would it be better if AI made it? Do you think the loser hikikimori lolicon is going to snap one day and kidnap some kids? Because then that would be wrong, because hes abusing children. Real ones, not a drawing. Fact of the matter is that if nobody gets hurt when you do something its probably morally permissible. Finding something disgusting is normal and natural but it dosnt mean the thing your disgusted by is wrong. I find gay men kissing to be disgusting but i know that its not very moral to make gay relationships illegal. So I dont think theres anything wrong with drawing anything at all. Because a drawing is a drawing. I stand by that one french guy that drew the prophet muhamid in an unflattering way the same why i stand by any type of porn artist

I would even argue that the sexualization of lolis is more moral than the porn industry. The porn industry preys on impressionable people who just turned 18 so that they can use their bodys for financial gain. They often promise them a life of luxury but the actual job is quite depressing and has driven many porn actors to suicide. Compare that to a drawing. The only person that gets hurt in that process is you (because drawing is hard)

 

But if you think its disgusting, thats definitely a valid opinion. But i stand by a persons right to draw anything they wish

EDIT: please dont perceive my post with a negative connotation

Edited September 19 by Tomochan

[Yuan65]

I agree with your sentiment. While it's true that cartoons and fiction feature imaginary characters and scenarios, they often reflect and influence our real-world desires, values, and aspirations. Many of the themes, values, and emotions portrayed in fiction resonate with us precisely because they tap into our fundamental human experiences and desires.

For example, when we enjoy stories of bravery and heroism in fiction, it's because we admire those qualities in real life as well. When we connect with fictional characters' struggles, it's often because we can relate to similar challenges in our own lives. And when we find certain relationships or dynamics appealing in fiction, it's because they mirror our desires for connection and understanding in reality.

So, dismissing the impact of fiction by saying, "It's not a real person," overlooks the profound ways in which fiction shapes our thoughts, values, and even our actions. Stories, whether in the form of cartoons, literature, or any other medium, have the power to influence and reflect our deepest desires and beliefs.

[Myouya]

On 9/19/2023 at 11:13 AM, Tomochan said:

it absolutely matters if the character is REAL. Are you hearing yourself? "a child is still a child", its a character not a child. Its not a real person. It has no thoughts or feelings. Thinking otherwise is chris chan level dimensional merge thinking

and yes, in order to make art, you must be a "real" person. Why does that even matter? Would it be better if AI made it? Do you think the loser hikikimori lolicon is going to snap one day and kidnap some kids? Because then that would be wrong, because hes abusing children. Real ones, not a drawing. Fact of the matter is that if nobody gets hurt when you do something its probably morally permissible. Finding something disgusting is normal and natural but it dosnt mean the thing your disgusted by is wrong. I find gay men kissing to be disgusting but i know that its not very moral to make gay relationships illegal. So I dont think theres anything wrong with drawing anything at all. Because a drawing is a drawing. I stand by that one french guy that drew the prophet muhamid in an unflattering way the same why i stand by any type of porn artist

I would even argue that the sexualization of lolis is more moral than the porn industry. The porn industry preys on impressionable people who just turned 18 so that they can use their bodys for financial gain. They often promise them a life of luxury but the actual job is quite depressing and has driven many porn actors to suicide. Compare that to a drawing. The only person that gets hurt in that process is you (because drawing is hard)

 

But if you think its disgusting, thats definitely a valid opinion. But i stand by a persons right to draw anything they wish

EDIT: please dont perceive my post with a negative connotation

While that's certainly an opinion, I'm willing to bet that real world child molesters do pretty much consume child porn (as they usually state in the news, "X man was caught preying on a child and was found to have child porn on their PC", it's a very repeated quote I find on news, see here as an example https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-isle-of-man-65419701 ).
So the argument we're trying to illustrate is that there definitely is a correlation between 'liking' those things, even in fiction (either AI or drawn) and then acting on them in real life.

I just don't buy it, honestly... and what's the need anyway? This is now just my personal opinion but I cannot fathom any artistic value in sexualising children. It's just pure malice and perversion to me (and we don't kinkshame in this house, but there are limits).

 

(also, no one here is arguing whether CP or the porn industry is worse, because they're both dreadful)

I'd just like to add as a fun thought on the topic, I think that there isn't such a big barrier between reality and fiction in our imaginations and brain processes. Say you want to go to the beach, at the moment that's fiction, untrue, because you're not in the beach, but you can be and make it real. You can also imagine yourself riding a unicorn on the Moon, that's also fiction, but cannot be fulfilled (probably, never been to the Moon to confirm). And the way this applies to this discussion is that preying on children is something that can happen, has happened, and will continue to happen so long as this rotten culture persists. They imagine it, crave it, and then go make it happen.