Ranking Recommendations

[Xerographica]

Just now on Youtube I watched "Best 15 Samurai Anime You should Watch".  Naturally in the comments quite a few people strongly disagreed with the order of the list.  For example, several people stated that Samurai Champloo should have been a lot higher on the list.  I agree.  The #1 anime was Rurouni Kenshin, which I certainly love a lot, but not nearly as much as I love Gintama, which was #2 on the list.  

The problem with one person ranking anime is that they probably haven't watched every single anime.  And even if somebody did watch every single anime, then that's all they ever did in their life, and their ranking would reflect their ignorance of everything else in life.   

Therefore, ranking anime should be a group endeavor. 

The easiest way to do so is voting.  Everybody just votes for their fav animes.  Of course I'd vote for both Samurai Champloo and Gintama, but does this mean I love them both equally?  Nope.  Love is a matter of sacrifice.  Sacrifice can't be conveyed with a vote.  

A better system would be to give all the participants 10 "dots" each.  You could distribute the 10 dots however you wanted among all the anime.  For example, every dot I give to Samurai Champloo is a dot that I couldn't give to Gintama.  Therefore this system would involve some sacrifice.  

The problem with 10 dots though is that the sacrifice isn't much in absolute terms.  With this in mind, the ideal ranking system should involve money.  Your own money.  

Don't just tell us that Samurai Champloo should be a lot higher on the list.  Put your money where your mouth is.  

Who would get the money?  This website would get it.  So we'd kill two birds with one stone... we'd 1. financially support this website and 2. make the most useful ranking of anime ever.  

Let me predict the biggest objection... why should rich people have more influence on the ranking than poor people?  To be clear, what matters most is the usefulness of the ranking.  If you think that a more fair system, such as the 10 dot system, would produce a more useful ranking, then let's simultaneously test and compare both systems.  

One of the worst things in life is overlooking the best things.  Fact is, no two systems can be equally effective at drawing your attention to the very best things that you've been overlooking.  Right now we can guess that one system is better than another, but it's not the same thing as actually using both systems for ourselves.  The proof is in the pudding.  

It would behoove us to figure out, sooner rather than later, which treasure map of anime is the most accurate.  

Well, while I'm at it... how much money have you spent on your most fav anime?  Does the amount you spent accurately reflect your true love for the anime?  Personally my most fav anime is Gintama.  I've spent $0 dollars on it.  I watched it on Crunchyroll for free.  No ads even since I use adblock.  This means that there's a huge disparity between...

A. my love for Gintama
B. the amount of money I've spent on it 

The current market system sucks for things like anime.  Sure, Netflix has a lot of anime, and it knows how many people have watched an anime, but it doesn't know how much they love it.  This would change if Netflix gave subscribers the opportunity to use their subscription dollars like dots.  Then, and only then, would Netflix have a far more accurate measure of the true and actual demand for anime.   

Netflix is way out of our reach though, unlike this forum.  Here, if there's enough interest, we can test out different ranking systems and figure out if there's a clear winner.  

[Otaking66lives]

Ranking systems are overrated, imho. Too many factors go into what makes something either good or bad. Even those factors are subjective to the viewer. I say, people should quit worrying about ranking anime and just enjoy it. Why are we trying to say which is better? Just say you enjoyed it and let everyone else make up their own minds. Share what you think, but don't try to convince people what they should think. A title like DBZ proves it...how many people love it and how many hate it? Case in point...

[Xerographica]

Otaking66lives, I would agree that current ranking systems are overrated, but this is simply because they don't accurately convey value, which can only be determined by sacrifice.  

Talk is cheap.  It doesn't cost me anything to simply say that I love Gintama.  It would be far more informative and meaningful if I donated $5 in order to improve its ranking.  I could have spent that $5 on some lamb skewers, which I also love.  But I spent that $5 on promoting Gintama instead.  Basically, I sacrificed some delicious lamb skewers for Gintama.  This is how I would prove my love for Gintama.  

Right now we live in a world where we don't think it's necessary to prove our love for our favorite animes.   If I was talented at drawing and storytelling I'd do a manga about a guy who gets reincarnated into a world where everyone understands that it's necessary to prove your love for your favorite animes.  And then everybody would see how much better that world is compared to our own world.  

The manga wouldn't be titled Love Confession, it would be titled Love Demonstration.  

Pretend we're cavemen...

Me: I'm starving!
You: Want some of my food? 
Me: I'd LOVE some!!
You: Ok, I'll give you some of my food, if you give me your necklace.  
Me: No deal!

In this really basic story I confessed my love for your food.  But did I get any?  Nope, because I wasn't willing to demonstrate my love for your food.  Evidently I wasn't that hungry.  

Tribe A solely relies on words to decide the distribution of food.

Tribe B relies on words and actions to decide the distribution of food.

Which tribe wins?  Tribe B.  If I want lamb skewers, then I better demonstrate my love for them.  

Nobody really benefits from the bad distribution of food.  But it's equally true that nobody really benefits from the bad distribution of attention.  Therefore, demonstrating love is equally important for food and anime.  

Edited March 27, 2022 by Xerographica

[Xerographica]

I meant tribe B.  No edit function?  

Edit: now I have the edit function.  

Edited March 27, 2022 by Xerographica

[MediaConsumesMe]

On 3/24/2022 at 6:44 AM, Xerographica said:

Well, while I'm at it... how much money have you spent on your most fav anime?  Does the amount you spent accurately reflect your true love for the anime?  Personally my most fav anime is Gintama.  I've spent $0 dollars on it.  I watched it on Crunchyroll for free.  No ads even since I use adblock.  This means that there's a huge disparity between...

A. my love for Gintama
B. the amount of money I've spent on it 

Well I've spent the most money on... Fate. It was also the first anime I bought, Fate Zero which kickstarted my collection a year back. However my favourite anime is Monster but I mean tracking down a DVD of that show is next to impossible so 'how much one spends on an Anime' might not be indicative of how much they rate that anime. 

 

[Xerographica]

6 hours ago, MediaConsumesMe said:

Well I've spent the most money on... Fate. It was also the first anime I bought, Fate Zero which kickstarted my collection a year back. However my favourite anime is Monster but I mean tracking down a DVD of that show is next to impossible so 'how much one spends on an Anime' might not be indicative of how much they rate that anime. 

 

Right, that's why the standard market system is terrible for things like anime.  There's no point in spending money on an anime that you can watch for free on Crunchyroll.  

With the standard market system, the point of spending money on anime is to own it.  Owning anime made sense back in the days before online streaming.  

With my proposed market system, the point of spending money on anime is to promote it.  Personally I've never heard of Monster.  The more money that you, and others, spend to promote it, the more inclined that I, and others, would be to give it a try.  

What I'm essentially suggesting is crowdfunded advertising.  Kinda like everybody who truly loves Monster chipping in to put it on a big billboard.  But relatively few people can see a billboard, unlike an online list.  So here on this website, everybody who truly loves Monster would chip in to move it higher up on the list. 

[efaardvark]

47 minutes ago, Xerographica said:

There's no point in spending money on an anime that you can watch for free on Crunchyroll.

Even if you can tolerate the stupid advertising for the "free" viewing, stuff doesn't stay on streaming sites.  Licenses can change or run out.  If you subscribe then subscription fees can get untenable etc.  If you like something enough that you would like to make sure that you have access to it for future viewing then you need to buy the disc.  And I do mean disc.  Or at least something either unrestricted or so poorly encumbered that you can trivially rip it to an unrestricted format.  If it is restricted then you're again viewing "your" show at their pleasure.  If they go out of business and you can't get to their server or if they decide that you haven't paid enough and instruct their server to hold "your" material hostage until you pay up then you won't be able to view stuff you've bought.  I've had to deal with both situations.  Fool me once, shame on you.  Fool me twice....

That doesn't mean that streaming sites are useless of course.  I subscribe to Netflix, Crunchy, and Hulu myself.  (And to spotify for music.)  Sturgeon's Law says that 90% of everything is crap.  I just don't know which is the other 10% until I've watched it at least once.  So I hit the streaming sites to view stuff that looks interesting.  Stuff I like I go ahead an buy on DVD, then rip the episodes to something like mkv format video files and put it/them on my video server on my LAN so I can watch it whenever and wherever.. even after the zombie apocalypse or if I'm halfway to Mars. 

 

As for ranking, that's what reviews are for.  You don't need to find someone that you agree with or likes exactly what you like.  They just have to be a reliable gauge of whether you would like it or not.  Back in the days when movie theaters were the only way to see a movie and evening news was a thing there used to be a movie reviewer on one of the evening news channels that I totally disagreed with.  He basically didn't like anything that was fun or popular and he loved stuff that was so "artistic" as to be boring and/or pretentious.  I tend to like fun and unpretentious, so if he hated it I put it on my ptw list.  He was very reliable & I made it a point to catch his reviews every evening.  

Seriously, I think a reliable reviewer is extremely valuable.  I'm not even kidding.  I would pay another subscription price for an impartial reviewer who I could rely on as an indicator of what I like.  Like I said, 90% of everything is crap.  I don't have enough time to watch every anime that comes out, and I don't have enough money to subscribe to every streaming site.  I would pay (along with hundreds of other subscribers) someone a salary to dig through it all and send me, reliably and consistently, recommendations to JUST the 10% that I, personally, find most entertaining.  Such a service would be worth it to me in time savings alone.

Edited March 27, 2022 by efaardvark

[MediaConsumesMe]

11 hours ago, Xerographica said:

Right, that's why the standard market system is terrible for things like anime.  There's no point in spending money on an anime that you can watch for free on Crunchyroll.  

With the standard market system, the point of spending money on anime is to own it.  Owning anime made sense back in the days before online streaming.  

Yeah, I own anime because I like a series and want to re-watch it. I've watched Fate/Zero four times completely. Two times on my own. I don't buy into streaming services, were ultimately paying for access to what's on the platform. I'm not a big fan of the whole service style, as whilst it makes anime very accessible they can make changes, remove shows you're watching ect. I had a really bad experience with Sky of all things, when I was watching Breaking Bad. I watched season 1 through 2 and then they removed it from the catalogue. At the time I didn't have Netflix, (not even sure if it was on there back a few years now) so I ended up having to wait a long time to watch seasons 3 to 5. 

Nowadays I mostly stick to physical releases for my anime/series that I like.

Plus the issue with Monster is that it currently is sort of in a legal hell for who owns the rights to even stream it. I think Hulu had it last, a few years back. But no ones got it right now so there's no way to watch it legally. There is the entire series uploaded to YouTube of all places, both sub and dub so that's cool. 

11 hours ago, Xerographica said:

What I'm essentially suggesting is crowdfunded advertising.  Kinda like everybody who truly loves Monster chipping in to put it on a big billboard.  But relatively few people can see a billboard, unlike an online list.  So here on this website, everybody who truly loves Monster would chip in to move it higher up on the list. 

And on a personal note, it not really my place to decide what should and shouldn't be promoted in terms of anime. I like what I like, and others on here like similar stuff and different stuff. So I'd recommend someone to watch Monster because personally I really like it. However I don't think it would be imperative for someone to watch that show or any show and no matter how much I might spend to promote it that's not going to guarantee someone's going to go watch it. After all for one thing Monster is a mature show, it not a show for say some of the people on this site because it is more adult themes and imagery throughout plus because it is a show geared towards a older audience it also might go over a younger individuals head. 

Again when they get older, that person might end up watching Monster and enjoy it then but in a younger mind set they might see it as long winded, talky and boring. 

A final critique of the purposed system would be what happened if a really notoriously bad anime (like Cypher) suddenly got an influx of super wealthy supports. Or just an average anime if were being less dramatic and the more likely outcome anyway. The system would fall apart because at this point it not about objective quality in the show but instead how much someone is willing to pay out to see there favourite show at the top. Again this system doesn't weed out subjective opinions it simply places a pay wall between sharing you're opinion/review on a show. 

Also currently I swear Gintama is doing really well on where it ranked on Mal. It at least in the top 10 on one list they've got up there. That's out of like all the anime on there database which is pretty extensive. 

[Animedragon]

I think that anime ranking systems are very subjective. A quick read through of the Top Ten List topic on this forum will soon make it quite clear that what series appeals to one person does not necessarily appeal to someone else.
Some reviewers rate series for various aspects of the series like storyline, animation, artwork, sound etc but even those can be subjective.

People's taste in anime series can, and often does, change over time. Some of the series I watched 20 years ago and thought were excellent I now wonder what I ever saw in them.

I think that while 'Top Ten' lists are fun to do we shouldn't get too hung up on 'ranking systems' we should just sit back and enjoy watching the anime we like and not worry too much about what other people think of our favourite series.

[Xerographica]

13 hours ago, efaardvark said:

Even if you can tolerate the stupid advertising for the "free" viewing, stuff doesn't stay on streaming sites. 

The main issue is that the decision whether to continue streaming an anime, as well as the bigger decision whether to continue producing it, is not informed by your true love for it.  

If we used our donations (to this forum) to rank animes, then our true love for them would inform decisions what to do with them.  

Trader Joes (TJs) is notorious for canceling products.  But its decisions are informed by people's buying habits.  Imagine though if TJs publicly shared a list of all its products sorted by the demand for them.  Personally I love their cheese and chile tamales.  If I saw that this favorite product of mine was too low on the list then maybe I'd donate to TJs in order to improve its ranking.  The higher it moved on the list, the less likely that TJs would cancel it.  

We should have the same option with animes.  We'd donate money to this forum, which would give us the opportunity to say, with our actions, "Please don't cancel Welcome to Demon School! Iruma-kun!"  or "Please continue streaming SKET Dance!"  or "Please I'd love more shows like FLCL!"  

Naturally, the more money we donated to this website, the less likely that it would be canceled.  Personally I've participated on several forums for many years that ended up being canceled.  It really sucks.  But it extra sucks because those cancellation decisions were not informed by people's true love for those forums.  

All we need is a good excuse to donate to this forum.  A good excuse would be provided by an anime ranking system based on our donations to this forum.  Even if you're broke af, you should want everyone to have a good excuse to financially support this forum that is useful to you.  

Edited March 27, 2022 by Xerographica

[Xerographica]

5 hours ago, MediaConsumesMe said:

 

A final critique of the purposed system would be what happened if a really notoriously bad anime (like Cypher) suddenly got an influx of super wealthy supports. Or just an average anime if were being less dramatic and the more likely outcome anyway. The system would fall apart because at this point it not about objective quality in the show but instead how much someone is willing to pay out to see there favourite show at the top. Again this system doesn't weed out subjective opinions it simply places a pay wall between sharing you're opinion/review on a show. 

 

As far as I know, most animes are produced by relatively wealthy people.  So their prefrences and tastes already largely determine the supply of anime.  Naturally these rich people would have significant influence on a donation based ranking system.  However, this system would give the rest of us the opportunity to also influence the ranking.  A bunch of small donations for an anime could move it a lot higher on the list.  

And even if you didnt find the ranking itself to be useful, it would provide financial support for this forum, which you do find to be useful.

[efaardvark]

There's a ton of other stuff wrong with mass media in general, not just anime.  Exclusive deals and limited competition.  Leeches in the middle interfering with consumers paying creators fair value for their works.  Regulatory capture creating copyright law misfeatures like the DMCA that hinder rather than ".. promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts".  If we could clear that stinking pile out of the way I'm sure there would be plenty of room to develop useful things like ranking systems, safety nets that keep obscure or niche works online and available, streaming services that actually have to care about customer service on both the creator and consumer side of the equation, and value-add services like reviewers that actually work for the consumer and aren't just labels advertising what's most profitable for themselves this week.  What we have now however.... ick.

On 3/25/2022 at 2:49 AM, Otaking66lives said:

Ranking systems are overrated, imho. Too many factors go into what makes something either good or bad. Even those factors are subjective to the viewer. I say, people should quit worrying about ranking anime and just enjoy it. Why are we trying to say which is better? Just say you enjoyed it and let everyone else make up their own minds. Share what you think, but don't try to convince people what they should think. A title like DBZ proves it...how many people love it and how many hate it? Case in point...

Yeah, I have enough trouble just figuring out what I want to put on my own favorites list.  I would not presume to try to create such for others.

Still, it does help to talk about it at least.  I value discussions here and elsewhere about what people like, especially if they include why they like something.  (As long as they don't include spoilers of course.  )

[Xerographica]

On 3/27/2022 at 4:59 PM, efaardvark said:

There's a ton of other stuff wrong with mass media in general, not just anime.  Exclusive deals and limited competition.  Leeches in the middle interfering with consumers paying creators fair value for their works.  Regulatory capture creating copyright law misfeatures like the DMCA that hinder rather than ".. promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts".  If we could clear that stinking pile out of the way I'm sure there would be plenty of room to develop useful things like ranking systems, safety nets that keep obscure or niche works online and available, streaming services that actually have to care about customer service on both the creator and consumer side of the equation, and value-add services like reviewers that actually work for the consumer and aren't just labels advertising what's most profitable for themselves this week.  What we have now however.... ick.

The problem you've described would be solved by the system that I've proposed.  Let's say that we used our donations (to this forum) to rank animes.  If the list that we created proved to be more useful than the lists created by voting and the lists created by single individuals... it would be a game changer.  

1. prioritization by a group of spenders = market
2. prioritization by a group of voters = democracy
3. prioritization by individuals = dictatorship 

Have you ever voted to make any significant decision about this website?  I'm guessing not.  Virtually all websites are dictatorships.  Youtube is a dictatorship, but its content is ranked by democracy.  This is why we've all heard of PewDiePie.  His content received the most votes (thumbs up).

But is PewDiePie the most valuable creator on Youtube?  No.  Democracy reveals the most popular option, which is rarely ever also the most valuable option.  

Not too long ago Youtube decided to hide how many times a video has been disliked.  This decision wasn't determined by democracy.  It could have been, but it wasn't.  Instead this decision was determined by dictatorship.  The logic is that there's a greater chance that a dictatorship, compared to democracy, will select the most valuable option.  

This is the paradox of prioritization.  

When most people are confronted by the paradox of prioritization they instinctively try and justify it.  But there is no real justification.  It is never ever truly beneficial when a system fails to select the most valuable option.  

Using donations to rank anime will prove that the market is better than democracy and dictatorships at prioritization.  And then?  And then no more democracy.  No more dictatorships.  No more leeches.  No more regulatory capture.  

To be clear, the market doesn't always select the most valuable option.  Let's say that The Disastrous Life of Saiki K is the most valuable option.  I doubt that this would be at the top of the list if we used donations to rank anime.  But I'm definitely sure that it would be ranked higher than it would be with democracy.  And I'm pretty sure that it would be ranked higher than it would be with dictatorship (on average).  

There are always going to be new animes.  There's always going to be the 1st people to watch new animes.  What matters is, if you're one of the 1st to watch a new anime, and you truly love it, that you should have the opportunity to demonstrate your love for it.  This opportunity guarantees that the most valuable new animes will move up in rank a lot faster than they would with democracy and dictatorships.  

Me: Have you watched the Ranking of Kings?  
You: No, should I? 
Me: Yes, very yes!
You: How much have you donated to promote it? 
Me: ________________

If I say $0 then you should naturally be skeptical of my love for this show.  

"If a woman told us that she loved flowers, and we saw that she forgot to water them, we would not believe in her “love” for flowers. Love is the active concern for the life and the growth of that which we love. Where this active concern is lacking, there is no love." — Erich Fromm, The Art of Loving

There's a lot of fake love in the world.  Mountains of it, especially thanks to democracy.  Filtering out all the fake love would be easily accomplished by a system based on donations.  No more PewDiePies and Kardashians at the top of the lists.  Instead what would quickly rise to the top would be all the things we truly love.  

[Otaking66lives]

How about we leave everyone's ideas at the door and just be fans? How about that? What a novel idea! XD