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Clichés, Tropes, and Stereotypes.


awesomedude20

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Nevermind that all 3 of those words basically mean the same thing, how do you feel about them?

Anime, and by extension, all entertainment media, is filled with clichés and the like. But are clichés always a bad thing? We always hear them as a thing to look down upon and that any form of media that lacks tropes and stereotypes is a good piece of media, but I believe that while being unique can be a great thing, it can jist as easily spell disaster for a show.

I have a saying.

"Clichés are not bad, poorly used clichés are bad." 

And I will probably always believe this. If you look at a show like My Hero Academia, whether you like it or not, its use of stereotypes and clichés are not its downfall. Even its setting isn't very unique. Amongst anime, sure, a world filled with superheroes is a rare find, but take a look at the west and look at all the Marvel and DC franchises that have been around for WAY longer.

Clichés can easily be turned from bad into great, or even go from being bad to simply not ruining a scene. Imagine this:

A romance anime, the main duo is alone by a river, about to confess and kiss for the first time. Then one of their phones goes off.

NOW, how does this always get played out in anime, and has come to common knowledge to be known as a pain in the ass? They both get flustered, and there's no confession or kiss, and they miss the moment, and then the show ends.

"Now go buy our manga!" says the anime.

But imagine if it played out like this:

One of their phones goes off, the other gets flustered, but the one with the phone simply chucks it into the river, confesses, and they kiss. Got all the nice dramatic OST going and all that.

Something as simple ad that can turn one of the most annoying tropes in anime into a great and memorable moment that'll leave you satisfied. Though that being said, nobody has ever really done that to my knowledge. Hence why I've been saying "imagine" ('-' )

Anyhoo, long story short, I shall repeat. Clichés are not bad, poorly used clichés are bad, and while I absolutely despise poorly used clichés, I have absolutely no issue, and even greatly enjoy well used clichés.

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Yeah, I absolutely agree with you. It's the reality of the medium and it's almost unavoidable at this point for a lot of genres (There are of course outliers, but they're still outliers!)

Nowadays, it's all about the execution of the cliché. Can the show execute it with grace or will it be done in a half-assed fashion?

Unfortunately, the latter seems to prevail, but there are shows that display clichés done well.

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I would agree with most of this. clichés  are far from bad, or good as you say. It is all in how they are used. It is also true in particular in fiction of any form be it anime, or otherwise that a bit of V is healthy. When used this way however more often then not it is bad form, but thats mostly do to how we as viewers see it. The fact is clichés, and stereotypes are all a fact of life we see all around us every day as we go about our lives. Its only natural we would use them in our creations. I see them most commonly used to make a situation seem different then it really is in order to unsettle the viewer.

Thats how I have always viewed it.

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1 minute ago, Wedgy said:

How about some more dimension, like, maybe two characters who have had previous relationships that didn't work out in one way or another and both of them have certain reservations and standards and expectations and, you know, real concerns? Of course it's been done, but I wouldn't mind if more anime took a page out of that book for a change.

(Natsuyuki Rendezvous, you're welcome)

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Just a little thing that not many people think about: Why are clichés used? Because they work. At some point, someone will have put a princess in a castle defended by a dragon, and it will have been a really damn popular story. So someone else copied it, and that one was popular too. And then someone else did the same thing, and it was less popular, but still fairly well received. Fast forward through 20 iterations of that though, and what you get is something completely bare bones and lifeless. Sure, the princess is still in her castle, and there's a dragon, but why is she there? Why has the dragon not just eaten her? What purpose does the dragon serve in the story other than to be killed eventually?

That can be applied to basically any cliché. In theory, an isekai is a ridiculously good way of designing a fantasy story. It allows you to put in exposition and world building completely naturally, it allows you to have a person who doesn't know how to use a martial weapon be forced to learn how while developing their character, and it provides you with a reason why your everyday guy has to go on his quest. It's the only way he'll get home. If you look at isekais in anime now though, the MCs are almost all just cardboard cut outs of the same personality deficient self overlay guy, who instinctively knows how to use a sword and really powerful magic. There's no world building, there's no reasons, it doesn't even matter if it's an isekai or a normal fantasy after the first 10 minutes.

If someone can return a cliché to it's original form, or be like Madoka and put a spin on it to make it something new (although we hate Madoka's spin because it ruined the magical girl genre in its entirety, since now everyone just wants to copy it), the cliche can become good again. That takes effort though, and with the way that LNs and manga are sold, it's incredibly hard to put that amount of effort into your story, since the deadlines are so short.

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3 hours ago, the_twig said:

Just a little thing that not many people think about: Why are clichés used? Because they work. At some point, someone will have put a princess in a castle defended by a dragon, and it will have been a really damn popular story. So someone else copied it, and that one was popular too. And then someone else did the same thing, and it was less popular, but still fairly well received. Fast forward through 20 iterations of that though, and what you get is something completely bare bones and lifeless. Sure, the princess is still in her castle, and there's a dragon, but why is she there? Why has the dragon not just eaten her? What purpose does the dragon serve in the story other than to be killed eventually?

That can be applied to basically any cliché. In theory, an isekai is a ridiculously good way of designing a fantasy story. It allows you to put in exposition and world building completely naturally, it allows you to have a person who doesn't know how to use a martial weapon be forced to learn how while developing their character, and it provides you with a reason why your everyday guy has to go on his quest. It's the only way he'll get home. If you look at isekais in anime now though, the MCs are almost all just cardboard cut outs of the same personality deficient self overlay guy, who instinctively knows how to use a sword and really powerful magic. There's no world building, there's no reasons, it doesn't even matter if it's an isekai or a normal fantasy after the first 10 minutes.

If someone can return a cliché to it's original form, or be like Madoka and put a spin on it to make it something new (although we hate Madoka's spin because it ruined the magical girl genre in its entirety, since now everyone just wants to copy it), the cliche can become good again. That takes effort though, and with the way that LNs and manga are sold, it's incredibly hard to put that amount of effort into your story, since the deadlines are so short.

Don't hate the innovator Twigs.  Hate the copycats lol...  I totally understand what you are saying about isekai these days, but the "instinctive and awesome MC" is kind of a trope itself in anime. 

 

For some reason, the Japanese writers just think these guys that are oh so cool because they just are born in some manner of perfect make an interesting MC.  I haven't studied ancient/historical Japanese fiction, but I imagine that many of the characters in those were perfect because they were "of water" or "of noble birth" or some other reason that makes them perfect and polished.  Without actual study of their own literature background, it is hard to judge if this is a continuation of a cultural assumption or if it is a new fad...painful fad...of anime.  In Western literature, you tend to have a lot of character development and usually there is a moral somewhere in the story to learn from (generally you start with flawed people who need fixing by the author lol).  I would actually be interested if someone here on the forums had more information about the similarities and differences in our historical fictions.  Maybe what we are interpreting as clichés are normal assumptions for their culture. 

 

As for me, some tropes I could do without.  Stop forcing harems to live together (it is eyerolling and a poor plot tool to force two unattracted people together), give little sister's their own reason for existence (they should not exist solely for the purpose of being a harem member bleh!  They should have hopes and dreams and carry on a life separate from their big brothers), flustered romances really just mean you aren't ready to be in one (it isn't romantic tension anymore.  It's annoying and lazy writing to stretch out a confession.), no more Marilyn Monroe skirts (the wind does not exist just for men to get panty shots) and no more slaps for having seen it (really, Japan needs to arrest some of these women for assault.  I enjoy a good hammerspace routine as much as the next one, but for comedy's sake.  Slapping someone who was unfortunate enough to have to witness your undergarments is a bit over the top.), and quit the groping (it's creepy, perverted, and no woman reacts to being fondled like they do in anime.  It is raising some poor Japanese boy's expectations far too high.), and no more lectures from lechers (especially this last one!  The groper turns around and lectures the girl for being mad about something or another.  SERIOUSLY?!  He's the one who needs a lecture!). 

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"Clichés are not bad, poorly used clichés are bad." 

I second that. Many writers fail to understand what makes the cliché so great, or the trope. (Trope and cliché are two different things. A cliché is an overused trope. The Oh So Evil Business Man is a trope, then it was overused for third grade films and now its a cliché. A cliché is usually a trope, but not vice versa)

Let's look at a one clichés - The Dark and Ever So Evil Lord. Tolkien, who, I think, invented this trope (though heavily inspired by mythology) created the Dark Lord Sauron, with the understanding that the most alluring thing about the overpowered enemy is, that the Dark Lord is only effective as long as he is also mysterious. The Dark Lord is so powerful (but often restricted to one place, e.g. tower/castle..), he only needs to send his (also rediculously powerful) minions -think of the Nazgûl-. For most of the LotR book we don't even get to see Sauron, only the description "He has only four on the Black Hand, but they are enough" - that's mysterious and terrifying, and the reason why Tolkien's Dark Lord works. The enemy is unkown, mysterious, evokes a primal fear, and often not even confronted directly. Some writers don't get that and let the Dark Lord appear and monologue frequently. We know who he is, what he thinks, his powers (which tells the hero exactly how strong he has to be), etc... I'm not saying that this trope of the Dark Lord doesn't work when the hero has to directly confront and fight him, but it should be the last epic showdown - no monologueing, no revealing of masterplan until he is defeated. For this trope to work, the Dark Lord has to stay shrouded in mystery and needs to strike absolute fear into the minds of the heros (nothing is more offputing than a hero certain of victory - that's a great way of killing off the suspence)

With this as an example, I think the sentence "Clichés are not bad, poorly used clichés are bad." holds a lot of truth, and is deeper than it seems at first glance. The great thing about tropes and clichés is that they are simply and easy to understand. (everyone understands what a Dark Lord, a Destiny, the Epic Sword is) In case of romance anime, we also often have the argueing 'couple' shouting at each other in front of the entire class - this cliché is often just used for comedic effect, but IMO also a lost opportunity for some great (and possibly funny) dialogue which could be the foundation of some good love story. Shouting and isnulting each other isn't romantic -possibly funny, but not romantic- but at the same time, nothing is more suspicous than a couple than never argues. Or in case of the phone going off right at the moment of the kiss at the riverbank? The point of the trope was probably comdic relieve, or to ease the tension, but can be used to highlight that the kiss is more important, OP has showed. But you can also use it as a good plot device. Throw the phone away but later the MC finds out that the phone call was important, maybe his mom wanted to inform him of a deceased family member, maybe an invitation for a job interview he wanted, etc..., and now he has to live with this, which could be the opening of an entire arc.

I think, just throwing away certain tropes, like Beocat wrote, doesn't solve the underlying issue - that writer's don't put effort in using the trope effectively. Why does a harem full of people that don't fit together live in the same house? Rather than deleting the this trope, one should try find a good explanation, and maybe try to actually write some good and plausible character interaction (I know, a shocker!) Someone made a pantyshot when the wind (for one reason or another) raised some woman's skirt? Now he gets reported for sexual harassment, and could be the start if some redeption arc of a hopeless pervert. Some girl slaps guys for every glance at her - well, definitely gonna meet the law and why does she even do it? Give her a backstory that explains it, and then have her some carthasis at the end, eventually making her a better person.

 

So, this has less to do with tropes and clichés

Quote

For some reason, the Japanese writers just think these guys that are oh so cool because they just are born in some manner of perfect make an interesting MC.  I haven't studied ancient/historical Japanese fiction, but I imagine that many of the characters in those were perfect because they were "of water" or "of noble birth" or some other reason that makes them perfect and polished.  Without actual study of their own literature background, it is hard to judge if this is a continuation of a cultural assumption or if it is a new fad...painful fad...of anime.  In Western literature, you tend to have a lot of character development and usually there is a moral somewhere in the story to learn from (generally you start with flawed people who need fixing by the author lol).  I would actually be interested if someone here on the forums had more information about the similarities and differences in our historical fictions.  Maybe what we are interpreting as clichés are normal assumptions for their culture.  

The idea of character development is very well etablished in japanese literature, even in older ones. The naive and brutal swordsman who eventually learns to finds the way of the sword as a more spiritual thing after a live of violence at hardship is a common trope in older japanese literature. Yes, there are stories of a perfect hero who has already all his skill and knowledge, especially in fairy tales, but we have the same thing in almost every culture. (While there are many interpretations of the Athurian legends, Lancelot is in many if them already a perfect knight without much character development needed) Joseph Campell argues in his book "The Hero with a Thousand Faces" that for any longer story, the hero -the MC is alway referred to as the hero- has to undergo character development, for the mere fact that it is almost impossible to write one where this is not the case. Short story can have heroes without development, long arching tales can't, otherwise they fail as a long story - and he came to this conclusion after studying tales from all around the world, including asian literature. His concept of the "Hero's Journey" is famous , studied and used by many authors. (and halso been used by authors centuries ago throughout the entiry world) Thus, I fear that the overpowered is in a new fad in anime (and also video games - power fantasy is becoming more and more popular...)

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