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I mean, sure, we can leave the discussion of what's good and bad for another day. However, I'm curious to know why

Eren's killed so many people in Marley despite having empathized with Reiner as to why he attacked Paradis, also having acknowledged the fact that it was the same in Marley and Paradis? My guesses, it was due to him having seen memories of the past and glimpses of the future when he kissed Historia's hand. Even if he did, exactly what did he see that caused him to have such a drastic change? (feel free to include spoilers from both manga and anime)

Edited by XII360
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i think its kinda cool and correct for his personality and style but i also think that the anime did not show us enough reasons for his plan (killing lots of people)

may they show more personal reasons and ... in future episodes or in ova maybe ?

but i think being cruel like that is kinda a good choice!

my personal opinion

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I feel so bad for Eren as a character but it was always my understanding that he had struggled with the duality of himself and the destructive nature of the world he was in. One thing was certain, Eren never lost an idealistic sense of a world without mass tragedy. Growing up, constantly faced with harsh realities and antagonistic decisions by others, seems like a journey that has warped Eren's views on peace and his role in achieving it, on the surface.

Spoiler

To solve both issues, Eren rather demolish—undetached and warmongering—if he thinks he can apply a brand of justice to those he feels are compromising it.

I think this direction in character is strongly bold because Eren himself has been subject to cruel circumstances by those he was supposed to fight for. Seeking self-identity and expected to forgo his own life for the political control and gain outside of his deeper beliefs. This is truly a slow burn on how major characters struggle with moral concepts when human nature is stripped away raw or have never been there to begin with.

Spoiler

I remember a piece of dialogue where Eren can't recall if he's "always been this way" or not. To me, that was personally heartbreaking because in an attempt to address humankind, his point of view that the audience experiences is the right of any wrong.

It reminds me of the tragic quote by Nietzsche:

Quote

He who fights with monsters should be careful lest he thereby become a monster. And if thou gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will also gaze into thee.

At this point, I'm sure Eren believes that an absolute utopia is nonexistent, so mankind should be as well. What I find genius is that the anime never implies that Eren is a good person. As long as he's on their side, a streak of hatred and rage is something anyone can overlook. A necessity of survival in the setting of the world. His views to balance out injustices and individuals that promote suffering is one of subjectivity too. It sounds great but what does Eren actually mean apart from what his comrades and friends take away from it? Other characters have a reason to channel their sacrifices. Levi for survival, Armin for exploration and discovery, Mikasa for love. Yet Eren translates that his goals are unclear and are blindsided by rage. I honestly believe that the character's current state is meant to produce a metamorphosis of losing humanity through suffering the worst of it. I don't really think that Eren was born a bad person but lost his way in what might possibly be irreversible. Hopefully he can find some sort of redemption or maybe that's been the lesson from the start. To be given redemption or not.

Spoiler

It seems like Eren changed when seeing the ocean and Historia just solidified what he was already feeling.

Either way, it's interesting development and complex to think about for sure! :)   

Edited by Zila
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4 hours ago, Zila said:

What I find genius is that the anime never implies that Eren is a good person

This. Armin was always the idealistic one, while Mikasa’s motivation has always been her loyalty to Eren. Eren however has always been driven by his rage over what he perceives as being unjust or unfair. While this may at first seem as something noble, it’s based on his own moral code.

 

When he tells Reiner that they are the same, I think he’s referring to how his mother’s death during the titan attack that Reiner instigated was just collateral damage in what Reiner considered “right”.  In that sense the death of hundreds of Marleyans & civilians is the same to Eren


After watching the 2 most recent episodes

 

it’s also clear that Eren is extremely bitter & disillusioned after the knowledge/memories he’s inherited. In particular his father’s actions & his plans to use Eren to continue his crusade. His father stole the founding titan’s power by murdering Historia’s family & passed it on to Erin so he could liberate their people by declaring war on Marley. After seeing Zeke’s backstory it’s even clearer that Grisha tried to force his ideals onto his sons regardless of what they wanted. The end result being Eren  has become so disillusioned that believes the world will be a better place without Eldians/Titans in it & any sacrifice is acceptable to accomplish it because the lives lost will pale in comparison to those saved & those never born are better off that way. 

4 hours ago, Zila said:

He who fights with monsters should be careful lest he thereby become a monster. And if thou gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will also gaze into thee.

Actually the whole point of this season seems to be how war causes people to act in monstrous  ways & the cycle repeats over and over as they & their descendants succumb to fear & resentment.

Edited by Ohayotaku
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6 hours ago, Zila said:

I feel so bad for Eren as a character but it was always my understanding that he had struggled with the duality of himself and the destructive nature of the world he was in. One thing was certain, Eren never lost an idealistic sense of a world without mass tragedy. Growing up, constantly faced with harsh realities and antagonistic decisions by others, seems like a journey that has warped Eren's views on peace and his role in achieving it, on the surface.

  Hide contents

To solve both issues, Eren rather demolish—undetached and warmongering—if he thinks he can apply a brand of justice to those he feels are compromising it.

I think this direction in character is strongly bold because Eren himself has been subject to cruel circumstances by those he was supposed to fight for. Seeking self-identity and expected to forgo his own life for the political control and gain outside of his deeper beliefs. This is truly a slow burn on how major characters struggle with moral concepts when human nature is stripped away raw or have never been there to begin with.

  Hide contents

I remember a piece of dialogue where Eren can't recall if he's "always been this way" or not. To me, that was personally heartbreaking because in an attempt to address humankind, his point of view that the audience experiences is the right of any wrong.

It reminds me of the tragic quote by Nietzsche:

At this point, I'm sure Eren believes that an absolute utopia is nonexistent, so mankind should be as well. What I find genius is that the anime never implies that Eren is a good person. As long as he's on their side, a streak of hatred and rage is something anyone can overlook. A necessity of survival in the setting of the world. His views to balance out injustices and individuals that promote suffering is one of subjectivity too. It sounds great but what does Eren actually mean apart from what his comrades and friends take away from it? Other characters have a reason to channel their sacrifices. Levi for survival, Armin for exploration and discovery, Mikasa for love. Yet Eren translates that his goals are unclear and are blindsided by rage. I honestly believe that the character's current state is meant to produce a metamorphosis of losing humanity through suffering the worst of it. I don't really think that Eren was born a bad person but lost his way in what might possibly be irreversible. Hopefully he can find some sort of redemption or maybe that's been the lesson from the start. To be given redemption or not.

  Reveal hidden contents

It seems like Eren changed when seeing the ocean and Historia just solidified what he was already feeling.

Either way, it's interesting development and complex to think about for sure! :)   

Spoiler

I love how you pointed out how there's autonomy in every single decision Eren makes for the whole of humanity. It is, indeed, interesting to think about. I think Eren said so himself, that he aims for freedom, and given what he's gone through in the total period of the anime and manga, he's developed a very negative view of the world, and mostly engages in a lot of all-or-nothing thinking imo, resulting him in thinking that the only way he'll earn true freedom is by killing anyone who opposes him. Personally, I don't think Eren has changed at all throughout the entire series. I still see the animalistic tendencies, the running after an ideal world. As to why I think his goals are unclear, it's generally because he's driven SOLELY by his emotions, or his sense of right and wrong, which is, for someone like Eren, quite dynamic. It's unstable, everchanging, and hugely dependent on how HE sees the rest of the world is treating him. When you base your actions on something so variable, it's understandable that your courses of action will be just as unpredictable.

 

8 hours ago, thatdeepguy said:

i think its kinda cool and correct for his personality and style but i also think that the anime did not show us enough reasons for his plan (killing lots of people)

may they show more personal reasons and ... in future episodes or in ova maybe ?

but i think being cruel like that is kinda a good choice!

my personal opinion

Lol, that is true! 

 

1 hour ago, Ohayotaku said:

This. Armin was always the idealistic one, while Mikasa’s motivation has always been her loyalty to Eren. Eren however has always been driven by his rage over what he perceives as being unjust or unfair. While this may at first seem as something noble, it’s based on his own moral code.

  Hide contents

When he tells Reiner that they are the same, I think he’s referring to how his mother’s death during the titan attack that Reiner instigated was just collateral damage in what Reiner considered “right”.  In that sense the death of hundreds of Marleyans & civilians is the same to Eren


After watching the 2 most recent episodes

  Hide contents

it’s also clear that Eren is extremely bitter & disillusioned after the knowledge/memories he’s inherited. In particular his father’s actions & his plans to use Eren to continue his crusade. His father stole the founding titan’s power by murdering Historia’s family & passed it on to Erin so he could liberate their people by declaring war on Marley. After seeing Zeke’s backstory it’s even clearer that Grisha tried to force his ideals onto his sons regardless of what they wanted. The end result being Eren  has become so disillusioned that believes the world will be a better place without Eldians/Titans in it & any sacrifice is acceptable to accomplish it because the lives lost will pale in comparison to those saved & those never born are better off that way. 

Actually the whole point of this season seems to be how war causes people to act in monstrous  ways & the cycle repeats over and over as they & their descendants succumb to fear & resentment.

Spoiler

I actually loved how Eren pointed the fact that him and Reiner were the same in s4. Marley was to Eren like Paradis was to Reiner. Both of them did what they did because they thought their actions would lead to a preferred future that plays on their favour, Eren for freedom, Reiner for acceptance. And yes, I agree with the fact that Grisha's view of what's good for mankind screwed both Eren's and Zeke's up too. When has giving children a job even before they were born ever worked out? :3

 

Edited by EWR-47
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Love reading both of your thoughts, they really add to a bigger picture. 

Anime-wise, how do you think it will end?

Spoiler

 

I'm hoping that Eren saw beyond the Rumbling through the Path and himself liberating the world by forcing the nations to come together. I think that's why characters like Eren Kruger and Grisha passed on the importance of Armin and Mikasa and their names, before they were even born. Maybe after Eren forces a change in history, and since there's probably no going back for him in the process. Especially mentally. I'd imagine that Armin and Mikasa would be the ones to end Eren's life. It makes no sense that he would randomly test either of them with their loyalty and plant seeds of doubt that protecting him was part of their own free will. This move seems like it's meant to make himself irredeemable, so that they would try to put him down.

I'm not entirely invested enough in the Path or the will of Ymir Fritz but I'm wondering if Ymir, and the corpse of the mysterious Being that gifted Ymir her abilities―made a pact to see if mankind was worthy of survival. Maybe the whole purpose was to test man via the release of Ymir from the cycle by an individual that actually chose to sacrifice everything for Ymir's plight. Destroying so much of himself to gift her with freedom. HUGE MANGA SPOILER AHEAD! >>>> If Mikasa actually does put Eren down, why did Ymir smile with joy as if it was something that hindered on her choice regardless? Is the freedom Eren is obsessed with actually the influence of Ymir? I don't recall anyone else being able to find Ymir in the Path but would that make Eren the only candidate that could, as a Founding Titan? If so, did Eren have to sacrifice to her, in order to grant her freedom and did he need to die, in order to command her to end the Titan reign? I'm reeeaaally hoping that's how it goes. Eren spent half his character feeling not good enough and the rest of it as a criminal no one can rightly forgive. As interesting as it would be that Eren became nothing more than an antagonist, I feel like his character deserves validation. He's more than point A and point B, as he's struggled three lives over. Through Kruger, Grisha's grief and the Attack Titan―who was said to instill the idea of freedom and rage to all who possess it. Hoping that Eren gets a chance to be somewhere in between all of these outside forces. Even if he does go down as a villain, that it was beneficial, a choice no other character could have made or understood? 🤔 

 

Ah, I just want Eren to surprise everyone and not be written off on predictability. Also, my boy Reiner better survive or I'll have opinions, I swear! 😡🤣     

Edited by Zila
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I haven’t read the manga, so just glossed over that paragraph, but honestly have no idea how things will end because I didn’t see the turn things took at the end of last season at all

 

with the revelations about Eldia & Marley. My theory prior to all that was that “Titans” were actually very small parasitic organisms that had evolved in response to humanity’s disproportionate & negative effect on their environment. When a human was infected, they transformed & develop an instinct to “eat” humans, even though they don’t get any nourishment from it. In this way human population & impact would be reduced & a more “natural” balance would be restored. But more recent develops suggest more of a mystical/supernatural explanation, but will have to wait & see.

As far as Eren is concerned, he needs to realize that this fatalistic world view he’s developed won’t really save anyone. Just because there are no more titans won’t stop wars from happening & people from trying to prosper at the expense of others or avenging themselves on those they feel have wronged them. One of the things that were brought out in the early episodes of this season was that technological developments were already reducing the effectiveness of titans as weapons. I think some of the revelations he recently had have made him feel like he & all Eldians are prisoners of fate (like how he said that Mikasa only protects/defends him because she is programmed to do so, not out of friendhip). Basically his current plan isn’t really about saving the world but the belief that his only recourse to not liking the role they were given is to take themselves out of the game altogether. An extreme manifestation of his rebellion. But, it doesn’t fix anything, it just makes it “not my problem”. Hopefully he’ll realize that power could actually be used in a productive way

Seems like you guys are more informed, but those are my thoughts just going off the anime to this point. Pretty sure it goes on hiatus after the next episode till the manga wraps up & they adapt the rest of it.

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On 3/24/2021 at 4:19 PM, Zila said:

Love reading both of your thoughts, they really add to a bigger picture. 

Anime-wise, how do you think it will end?

  Reveal hidden contents

 

I'm hoping that Eren saw beyond the Rumbling through the Path and himself liberating the world by forcing the nations to come together. I think that's why characters like Eren Kruger and Grisha passed on the importance of Armin and Mikasa and their names, before they were even born. Maybe after Eren forces a change in history, and since there's probably no going back for him in the process. Especially mentally. I'd imagine that Armin and Mikasa would be the ones to end Eren's life. It makes no sense that he would randomly test either of them with their loyalty and plant seeds of doubt that protecting him was part of their own free will. This move seems like it's meant to make himself irredeemable, so that they would try to put him down.

I'm not entirely invested enough in the Path or the will of Ymir Fritz but I'm wondering if Ymir, and the corpse of the mysterious Being that gifted Ymir her abilities―made a pact to see if mankind was worthy of survival. Maybe the whole purpose was to test man via the release of Ymir from the cycle by an individual that actually chose to sacrifice everything for Ymir's plight. Destroying so much of himself to gift her with freedom. HUGE MANGA SPOILER AHEAD! >>>> If Mikasa actually does put Eren down, why did Ymir smile with joy as if it was something that hindered on her choice regardless? Is the freedom Eren is obsessed with actually the influence of Ymir? I don't recall anyone else being able to find Ymir in the Path but would that make Eren the only candidate that could, as a Founding Titan? If so, did Eren have to sacrifice to her, in order to grant her freedom and did he need to die, in order to command her to end the Titan reign? I'm reeeaaally hoping that's how it goes. Eren spent half his character feeling not good enough and the rest of it as a criminal no one can rightly forgive. As interesting as it would be that Eren became nothing more than an antagonist, I feel like his character deserves validation. He's more than point A and point B, as he's struggled three lives over. Through Kruger, Grisha's grief and the Attack Titan―who was said to instill the idea of freedom and rage to all who possess it. Hoping that Eren gets a chance to be somewhere in between all of these outside forces. Even if he does go down as a villain, that it was beneficial, a choice no other character could have made or understood? 🤔 

 

Ah, I just want Eren to surprise everyone and not be written off on predictability. Also, my boy Reiner better survive or I'll have opinions, I swear! 😡🤣     

As far as Reiner is concerned, I DEFINITELY agree. He's been through enough, and mf needs a break.

As for the part in the spoilers tag, you brought to light a perspective I'd genuinely never have considered.

 

On 3/24/2021 at 4:19 PM, Zila said:

Is the freedom Eren is obsessed with actually the influence of Ymir?

Spoiler

This one in particular ^^. It made me sit and question Ymir's real desires in the first place. To this point, we've seen Ymir as the person who's lived her entire life being a slave. So, the idea that she might be smiling because she thinks that Mikasa killing Eren could actually bring her closer to attaining what she truly desires. Tho I'm not sure if what she truly desires is freedom, or if she's just being a slave to something else again. It could also be that the reason why Eren is soo obsessed with freedom is because Ymir wills for it to, like you said. However, wouldn't that make Ymir...God? I mean, assuming that Titans are still the strongest species, won't control over both humans and titans make her God? 

As for the dynamic between Eren and Ymir, and both of their motives, I'm not sure if one's controlling the other's reasons, or if both of them have their own independent wills. The contrasting characters of Eren and Ymir make it more interesting altogether. Eren's repeatedly said that a human who lives to follow orders and be a slave is weak, which causes me to believe that he not only believes in freedom for himself, but for everyone else too. So, in a way, has he used his freedom to 'freely' choose that he WANTS to be a slave to Ymir's will just because he thinks that it'll cause everyone else to be just as free as he wants to be?

Either way, I found your take on the subject quite interesting!

Also, Jean's another character I'm rooting for. He's the most realistic and relatable character in the series imo. No genetic advantage, excellent character development, and general human empathy. Love this dude to the core

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  • 4 weeks later...

I've only watched half of the series yet, but I am totally into his changed character. What he would do next is inevitable. In earlier seasons, Eren was always TALKING BIG and end up being captured or hit before anyone else in his squad. 

Now I see him much sorted and dependable. I am only talking about his personality and not counting his special powers. It's good that he is no more that SHONEN brat anymore. I would agree with everyone's opinion here that after going through all these wraths, anyone would turn to a silent and cocky person. As I am yet to complete this season, my suspense has grew even more because now I cannot predict what would Eren do next. 

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