How to Argue Effectively

[Cy~]

Note: Apologies if posting this seems a little presumptuous of me. With that said, I think that every forum needs at least one topic like this. I find them handy to link to in a pinch, and they're actually decent references when crafting any kind of lengthy piece of writing that contains an opinion of some kind.

Introduction

 

Bam! You have carefully crafted your argument and the post button was clicked. There it sits, a masterpiece of argument. Are you certain that it is? Now, you await a response that is equally glorious. Instead, you receive utter drivel, allegations of your own insanity/hysteria, or (my personal favorite) discussions of your clearly deranged emotional state.

 

Sadness overtakes you, because the Internet has once again supplied you with another sad reminder of the death of critical thinking. :'( If only there was something that you could do to redeem the discussion. ... Well! Now there is! For only 5,000 easy payments of souls, limbs, and liters of human blood, you can both gain and spread the knowledge of effective argument.

 

What is an effective argument?

 

It turns out that a very smart person has already written a fairly decent guide on the art of argument. If you don't feel like reading it, then don't worry! I have a lovely picture!

 

 

 

 

 

 

I also have a summary. An effective argument is one that lands somewhere in the top three tiers of the hierarchy of disagreement. Keep in mind, the goal of an effective argument is not to "win" a discussion. Instead, the goal of an effective argument is to communicate - to give your point of view the best possible platform that it could have.

 

But, but, but... I don't want to argue?

 

Yet, here you are! Even a statement that you don't want to argue is an argument. There's no escape really. If you're writing on the Internet, even if you agree with 99% of what other people say, you'll still find yourself in a position, eventually, when you need to say what you think about a topic. It's unavoidable. :'(

 

Okay, fine, but like - how do I use this pyramid thing?

 

It's actually really easy! Whenever you're writing up an argument, open this topic up in another tab or browser window. Then, ask yourself, "Where does what I'm writing fit into this?" If you think that you're on a tier that's a little bit too low, then stop what you're doing and UP YOUR GAME!

 

Well, that's cool and all, but this just seems stupid. Why should I care?

 

First of all, you just made an ineffective argument , but I digress!

 

You should care, because bad arguments make it harder for people to communicate with you. If you're harder to talk to, then you may find that it's harder to build and maintain friendships. Good arguments, however, can build both friendships and mutual respect. Even if you don't agree with others and they don't agree with you, you can both shake hands and walk away with more than you went in with.

 

That's what it's all about, really. Good argument teaches and shares. Bad argument simply takes away.

 

Okay, I'm convinced! But, like... Do you have any other examples?

 

Yes, actually! Let's take a simple "argument" and look at how it changes as we move from the bottom of the hierarchy to the top. Let's pretend that someone named "Julie" is planning a party and has decided to schedule it during the middle of the week, in the middle of the day, because this works best for her. Let's also say that she's already upset because you declined the invitation due to your busy schedule.

 

I am going to make this an extremely informal example, just for the sake of showing how you can apply the general principles in this topic to just about anything.

 

0. Name-Calling - Well, Julie, you're a total <censored> <censored> <censored>. (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻

 

1. Ad Hominem - Julie, I don't think that you looked at this seriously enough. o3o

 

2. Responding to Tone - Julie, I think that what you wrote is way too emotional! :0

 

3. Contradiction - The party should happen on a weekend.

 

4. Counterargument - Most people work during the weekday, so the party should be on a weekend. ^^;

 

5. Refutation - When you said, "the party should be on a weekday because that fits my schedule", you overlooked a bit of a problem. No one else is going to be off work on that day, at that time.

 

6. Refuting the Central Point - If you schedule a party on that day and at that time, then I won't be the only person to turn down your invitation. While it may be a holiday for you, not everyone is out of work during that particular day. You would get more attendees if you scheduled for the weekend, including me.

 

Did you see it? Did you notice the thing? As you move further "up" in the hierarchy of argument, it tends to take a little more effort to communicate your point. However, look at the outcome. Even if you're right, Julie will have no clue what your point is if your argument lands from 0 - 2. You have contributed absolutely nothing of value to the topic.

 

This is why better skills in building an effective argument can lead to friendship. An argument doesn't have to be a deleterious grudge fest. Instead, it can be a simple discussion, between two people that are mutually respectful.

 

For an excellent example of the absolute highest form of argument on this site, please see this topic and the discussion between @Orius and @Nectar. I hate calling them out like this, but that really was good stuff.

 

For an excellent example of the lowest form of argument... Actually, I don't think that I need to link any of these. They're surprisingly common, and I'm certain that we have all seen or been involved in at least one or more.

 

Any other tips?

• Don't bludgeon people with a link to this topic if you think they're making a low grade argument. Feel free to growl at them a little and then move on. It's a waste of a good link to throw this thing at people randomly. This is a self-help reference, nothing more and nothing less.
  
• Remember to See Randomness. Don't assign malevolent intent or negative emotions to someone if you don't know them intimately. Doing otherwise is a great way to burn bridges.
  
• When in doubt during an argument, walk away from your computer for a few hours. Try to clear your mind. Maybe listen to music that you're fond of. Then, come back and see if you still feel as strongly on a topic. Maybe it isn't quite worth it, after all?
  
• Not everyone is going to get along! That's okay! However, if you think that you don't mix well with someone, don't throw yourself at them. Instead, give a healthy and intelligent amount of distance. It's the respectful thing to do.
  

And, that's all there is to it~

[Orius]

Well, Cy~, you're a total productive person for posting this. (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻

 

Did I do it right...? <_<

 

Jokes aside, nice thread. Could always count on you to make another useful discussion to the forum. lol

[Cy~]

Did I do it right...? <_<

 

Masterfully well executed! I felt my heart flutter at the eloquence!

 

Jokes aside, nice thread. Could always count on you to make another useful discussion to the forum. lol

 

Hahaha, it's self serving more than anything, tbh. I have moments of extreme forgetfulness when I fail to remember all of the stuff I wrote in that post, so I like having it (or some variety of it) on the forums that I frequent, as a healthy reminder to contain my more baser urges.

[Imogen]

This is wonderful! Would I have your permission to spread this around (to other forums) when I see people making bottom of the pyramid responses? (which happens often)

 

Are we allowed to discuss where we think we fall on this scale? I definitely do think when I argue I fall more into the counterargument category. I do sometimes get to refutation. I've very very very infrequently refuted the central point. I can say with some experience that higher levels of arguing has a much greater effect to achieving the point you're trying to make and helping people see your point of view. Going lower and lower only leads to more strife.

 

I love debating btw. I know we're not allowed to talk religion or politics on the public forums but if it's cool with the mods I invite anyone who wants to debate to PM me. I'm very comfortable with myself and my views (and I'm flexible if you prove your point!) so I'm happy to do so any time.

[Cy~]

Would I have your permission to spread this around (to other forums) when I see people making bottom of the pyramid responses?

 

Ehehe, I've never had anyone ask me something like that before.

 

Permission granted!

 

Quite frankly, if it's to make the Internet a better place, then I am all for it.

 

Are we allowed to discuss where we think we fall on this scale?

 

I don't see why not!

 

For the record, I think that, in casual conversation, counterargument is actually one of the best compromises between the time spent building your argument and the quality of the result (communication). Speaking for myself, I tend to rely on counterarguing quite a bit in the online sphere. However, at my job (government accounting), I stick solely to refutation and refuting the central point. It's a more formal setting, so I have a lot more to lose by being sloppy with an argument.

 

And, you're right, dropping below "Counterargument" is actually really risky if you value your relationship with the person that you are arguing with. It's far too easy to offend, unintentionally, when you try to take shortcuts in a tense discussion. Especially if you're talking with a diverse group of people with many different viewpoints and experiences, it's better to put more effort into an argument. It may turn out that you learn something about a different culture, or pick up a new viewpoint. I know I have, sometimes.

 

I love debating btw.

 

Heya! Me too!

 

Though, I confess that I don't have as much energy for it, these days, due to getting more than my fill from my workplace, hahaha. :'(

[zoop]

Ok I think you might have to much time on your hands

 

That's kind of a crummy thing to say to someone who put a decent bit of thought into writing this, don't you think?

 

I might be odd, but I prefer to encourage activity on the forum, rather than make casual comments without a great deal of thought behind them that might discourage people from being comfortable with being active here. I mean this in a very general sense, not just with regards to your comment on this thread.

 

With that said, I feel that I might as well clarify that this thread was written in roughly a half hour, and is more or less only the latest version of a thread that Cy~ has previously crafted on other forums in the past. As for having too much time on her hands, she has full time employment, and is in the process of writing a visual novel so... no, she really doesn't have too much time on her hands.

Edited June 21, 2017 by Guest

[Orius]

Well, there's always the Dislike button. Another way to argue without arguing.

[Greeneyes]

I apologize

[Cy~]

I apologize

 

Just posting to say that I really appreciate the fact that you went back in here and made an apology post. Not everyone is that graceful, so like thanks.

 

Actually, I really wish that I had a lot of spare time. I would be on this site posting like a <censored> (hidden by order of my spouse, ugh mods @zoop).

 

Instead, I seriously spend way too many hours each week swearing prodigiously while attempting to keep up with a pace of 1,000 words a day on my writing while holding down a full time job. That sounds like a lot of words a day, but the final target is over 200,000 words, so I'm just flat out fucked. I'll be working on the same thing for at least a year, if I'm lucky. :'(

 

It's actually a little disheartening, so yeah, I take breaks from the grind to come here and post random stuff. Now, you know the secret. (Which is that I'm insane. )

[John jobs]

Very nice, i always thought some of this was commen knowledge until i actually went on the internet . But good job, though i dont know about you guys but sometimes i find it hard to focus when in an argument and i completely forget most of my evidence and end up looking like a jerk.

 

I alsl have the huge problem of forgetting people dont know everything i know that makes my evidence stand out and work

[existentiallylostdumbell]

Shut up, I'm not arguing, I'm never going to argue, you're wrong!

[BurnsyCEO]

I usually do either contradiction or name calling without any middle ground. I'm bad at arguing.

[Xyro]

How to be good at arguing:

by being right in the first place

[Greeneyes]

4 hours ago, Peacock said:

How to be good at arguing:

by being right in the first place

My friend is allot like you when I argue with him but most times I come out on top by talking him into a corner.

[Xyro]

4 hours ago, Greeneyes said:

My friend is allot like you when I argue with him but most times I come out on top by talking him into a corner.

Tbh, I meant more along the lines of "being right in the first place to prevent the need of an argument." In all honesty, arguments can be incredibly constructive, and if you are willing to sit and argue your point effectively and without altering to the child-like reasoning, then they can actually help build  character.

Also, nice to see you again Greeneyes ^^